{"attributes":{"domain":"guzey.com","path":"/theses-on-sleep/","isLocked":false,"commentCount":10,"stickyCommentHex":"none","title":"Theses on Sleep - Alexey Guzey"},"commenters":{"0549e49d43ab2e9d9bf866fad1b8f91d2b0a0c43692397a9f838e8ad226eb287":{"commenterHex":"0549e49d43ab2e9d9bf866fad1b8f91d2b0a0c43692397a9f838e8ad226eb287","name":"Flo","link":"https://twitter.com/FlorianKluge","photo":"https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1492002541961641984/HHh0PR2v_normal.png","provider":"twitter","joinDate":"2022-02-11T05:08:53.080447Z","isModerator":false},"41dc916e6e331b6beeb3ddf964473416b4eae62d6d640a7b12b2145d02377217":{"commenterHex":"41dc916e6e331b6beeb3ddf964473416b4eae62d6d640a7b12b2145d02377217","name":"Nick Wignall","link":"https://twitter.com/ndwignall","photo":"https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1439565563701784583/raFaKeqe_normal.jpg","provider":"twitter","joinDate":"2022-02-10T22:12:38.303156Z","isModerator":false},"459cb431dba8f714383ac2aef2ff5a1812bb07a4fe8d82a6d97cf1fbd08fa0c0":{"commenterHex":"459cb431dba8f714383ac2aef2ff5a1812bb07a4fe8d82a6d97cf1fbd08fa0c0","name":"Alexey Guzey","link":"undefined","photo":"undefined","provider":"commento","joinDate":"2021-11-05T08:40:30.726225Z","isModerator":true},"7b68d89b4b6ae10a74d2ac74b043a3c4517bb180b22b4428b63caaed6ceb54d8":{"commenterHex":"7b68d89b4b6ae10a74d2ac74b043a3c4517bb180b22b4428b63caaed6ceb54d8","name":"Johnny Clark","link":"undefined","photo":"https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/AOh14Gj4aU69N8prXAd7lwmlS3dHW-lp_SfATAlIRGkJtg=s96-c","provider":"google","joinDate":"2022-02-11T05:27:35.169318Z","isModerator":false},"anonymous":{"commenterHex":"anonymous","name":"Anonymous","link":"undefined","photo":"undefined","provider":"undefined","joinDate":"0001-01-01T00:00:00Z","isModerator":false},"e18f30bbc01b92f41c8bd4329b026fe9065bb4542382efb9fbfd4d57ae8e765b":{"commenterHex":"e18f30bbc01b92f41c8bd4329b026fe9065bb4542382efb9fbfd4d57ae8e765b","name":"Kim A Christensen","link":"https://twitter.com/KAChristensen1","photo":"https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1480931301922381834/fRU4OmvB_normal.jpg","provider":"twitter","joinDate":"2022-02-11T10:46:58.951785Z","isModerator":false}},"comments":[{"commentHex":"ff39436108f17a898f3f2e2b33e7043a6ecf5d31dfd47d83832fef831492b20b","commenterHex":"41dc916e6e331b6beeb3ddf964473416b4eae62d6d640a7b12b2145d02377217","markdown":"","html":"\u003cp\u003eI’m a clinical psychologist who spent the first part of my career doing cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. And what I can say is that if you showed this to other CBT-I professionals, they’d more than likely agree with most if not all of them. But if I showed it to any other generically trained therapist or psychologist, they’d tell you you were nuts.\u003c/p\u003e\n\n\u003cp\u003eJust my two cents but most academics and professionals in the sleep space stand to benefit from sleep being viewed as this big problem and goal everybody in society thinks they need to work on and optimize. It’s classic invent a disease so you can sell a cure. The sleep hygiene industrial/academic complex. Not saying this is totally conscious/manipulative on their part, but the incentives are hard to ignore once you see them.\u003c/p\u003e\n\n\u003cp\u003eBut talk to a CBT-I provider who’s actually good at helping people overcome insomnia and they’ll tell you that the entire project is predicated on getting people to stop thinking about sleep as a problem and something that has to be constantly tinkered with and perfected. Insomnia is an anxiety disorder, not a sleep disorder imo.\u003c/p\u003e\n\n\u003cp\u003eI imagine point three will get a lot of blowback, but I suspect it’s the thing that is the most underrated in this whole post. Often when I did sleep restriction with my clients, I would hear stories about how later on, after their insomnia was taken care of, they would periodically do it again as a way to “tighten up” their sleep. And many of them reported cognitive/productivity benefits as well. Highly anecdotal, obviously, but I suspect if we\u0026#39;re going to see a consensus shift on this idea of benefits of temporarily sleeping less, it’s going to come from individual sleep hackers with podcasts and youtube channels, no mainstream sleep researchers.\u003c/p\u003e\n","parentHex":"root","score":1,"creationDate":"2022-02-10T22:16:34.748544Z","direction":0,"deleted":false},{"commentHex":"2b636251afd8ceea6429ab7961ab9f21444e86e3ebb082c3c0bf7173459f809d","commenterHex":"7b68d89b4b6ae10a74d2ac74b043a3c4517bb180b22b4428b63caaed6ceb54d8","markdown":"","html":"\u003cp\u003eI am \u003cem\u003epretty\u003c/em\u003e skeptical of this post. I think there is a core premise that is wrong here, which I will get to after I set up some bona fides.\u003c/p\u003e\n\n\u003cp\u003eI am not a doctor, psychologist, or other sleep professional, but I am someone who has played around quite a bit with sleep. When I was younger, I suffered for awhile from insomnia and I tried a number of sleep schedules, such as XKCD\u0026#39;s 28 hour day (\u003ca href=\"https://xkcd.com/320/\" rel=\"nofollow\"\u003ehttps://xkcd.com/320/\u003c/a\u003e), and the Uberman sleep schedule (2 hours sleep / 24 hours total, split into six twenty-minute naps), which I did an AMA about here: (\u003ca href=\"https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/cski1/i_tried_the_ubermans_sleep_schedule_for_sixty/\" rel=\"nofollow\"\u003ehttps://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/cski1/i_tried_the_ubermans_sleep_schedule_for_sixty/\u003c/a\u003e).\u003c/p\u003e\n\n\u003cp\u003eLater, I was homeless for two years, and I hitchhiked around the US and Canada. Nearly every night for two years, I slept in a sleeping bag on the ground. I think my experience was pretty similar to what you describe in the \u0026#34;10,000 years ago\u0026#34; period. I had to sleep light, wary of people coming up on me in the dark.  The ground was hard, the temperature dropped (often below freezing depending on season and location), and dealing with light and sound was certainly an issue. I\u0026#39;ve slept in woods, snow, rain, alleys, parks, the occasional bus seat, under overpasses, on construction sites, on hills propped against trees so I wouldn\u0026#39;t roll downhill, with cars going by and making noises, in cities, in suburbs, in small towns, and in the middle of nowhere. If you can imagine a thing I had to deal with during sleep, I probably had to deal with it; I think I\u0026#39;ve slept just about every way but standing up.\u003c/p\u003e\n\n\u003cp\u003eHere\u0026#39;s what I did not do, during that time: sleep seven to nine hours.\u003c/p\u003e\n\n\u003cp\u003eYou\u0026#39;re absolutely correct that the sleep quality is way lower like that and I shambled around like a zombie anytime I had to walk around on that little sleep (such as when I was awoken early by cops, which was a frequent nuisance). What I did instead was, as soon as it went dark I would go to sleep, and then I\u0026#39;d wake up after the sun was pretty high in the sky. This was often 12 hours, sometimes only 10, and when I\u0026#39;d had a rough day with a lot of walking, sometimes it was 15 - e.g. get into the bag at 9pm, get out of the bag at noon.\u003c/p\u003e\n\n\u003cp\u003eThese days I sleep in a bed in a safe house with nice walls and doors, and I sleep seven to nine hours. I don\u0026#39;t think that\u0026#39;s because I\u0026#39;m depressed or engaging in a superstimulus; I think it\u0026#39;s because the 10-15 hours I need to function while sleeping rough is condensed into 7-9 by the better sleep quality. So I think there\u0026#39;s a premise that\u0026#39;s wrong here. I suspect that premise is \u0026#34;people in the ancestral environment slept for seven to nine hours\u0026#34;, but perhaps I\u0026#39;m wrong and it\u0026#39;s \u0026#34;sleep quality in the ancestral environment was actually that bad\u0026#34; - maybe our ancestors had significantly better sleep quality than someone in a sleeping bag in modern America.\u003c/p\u003e\n\n\u003cp\u003eFeel free to follow up with me if you\u0026#39;re interested in any of my experiences, I believe we have some mutuals on Facebook, or I\u0026#39;m TheSkeward#1111 on Discord.\u003c/p\u003e\n","parentHex":"root","score":1,"creationDate":"2022-02-11T05:48:16.208731Z","direction":0,"deleted":false},{"commentHex":"0e2e2e4fd7f4c097d2b2efe8080901ccedb91843bc5a6e1992cdb32678da511d","commenterHex":"459cb431dba8f714383ac2aef2ff5a1812bb07a4fe8d82a6d97cf1fbd08fa0c0","markdown":"","html":"\u003cp\u003eBessone et al pre-analysis plan (\u003ca href=\"https://guzey.com/files/science/sleep/bessone2021-pre-analysis-plan.pdf\" rel=\"nofollow\"\u003ehttps://guzey.com/files/science/sleep/bessone2021-pre-analysis-plan.pdf\u003c/a\u003e, \u003ca href=\"https://www.socialscienceregistry.org/trials/2494):\" rel=\"nofollow\"\u003ehttps://www.socialscienceregistry.org/trials/2494):\u003c/a\u003e \u0026#34;We will adjust p-values for multiple hypothesis testing as appropriate within classes of primary outcomes.\u0026#34;\u003c/p\u003e\n\n\u003cp\u003eAccording to pre-registered specifications with multiple-hypothesis correction (See: Table A.VII: Main Treatment Effects, Fully-Disaggregated and Including Multiple Hypothesis Testing Corrections), \u003cstrong\u003eall of their primary night-time sleep effects and nap effects are null or negative.\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\n\u003cp\u003eThe night-time sleep and napping effects they report in the abstract are, in contradiction to the pre-registration plan, not multiple-hypothesis corrected. They also never mention PAP results anywhere in the main body of the text, relegating them to the Table A. VII in \u003cem\u003ethe supplement.\u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\n\u003cp\u003eWhat I find even more notable is that their \u0026#34;Pre-Analysis Plan (PAP)\u0026#34; section describes the \u0026#34;main deviations\u0026#34; from the PAP but never mentions that they completely abandoned multiple-hypothesis corrected estimates.\u003c/p\u003e\n","parentHex":"01e46a3d31ee133cc06349b4a3a1b434b8a3a83b9d94ea853dcd32b53a03c491","score":0,"creationDate":"2022-02-10T23:02:58.059565Z","direction":0,"deleted":false},{"commentHex":"01e46a3d31ee133cc06349b4a3a1b434b8a3a83b9d94ea853dcd32b53a03c491","commenterHex":"anonymous","markdown":"I shared this article with a colleague and she pointed out to me that you seem to be citing the 2021 Harvard/MIT economics paper (Bessone et al, QJE 2021) unfairly. Their abstract seems to include, very explicitly, the null results in question: \"Contrary to expert predictions and a large body of sleep research, increased nighttime sleep had no detectable effects on cognition, productivity, decision making, or well being, and led to small decreases in labor supply.\" I'm not sure what you think is missing?\n-- random economist","html":"\u003cp\u003eI shared this article with a colleague and she pointed out to me that you seem to be citing the 2021 Harvard/MIT economics paper (Bessone et al, QJE 2021) unfairly. Their abstract seems to include, very explicitly, the null results in question: \u0026#34;Contrary to expert predictions and a large body of sleep research, increased nighttime sleep had no detectable effects on cognition, productivity, decision making, or well being, and led to small decreases in labor supply.\u0026#34; I\u0026#39;m not sure what you think is missing?\n-- random economist\u003c/p\u003e\n","parentHex":"root","score":1,"creationDate":"2022-02-10T22:58:22.655047Z","direction":0,"deleted":false},{"commentHex":"0b76085af26994ee10e0b1eb3dea7d0cbe755f7832d036cbb5f3b2df33e536fd","commenterHex":"anonymous","markdown":"[deleted]","html":"[deleted]","parentHex":"root","score":0,"creationDate":"2022-02-11T05:51:51.621667Z","direction":0,"deleted":true},{"commentHex":"4c2dbb977fd6941d90b5b969a8db086ce05ef0694d400b0d37a7a742cf5f74fc","commenterHex":"0549e49d43ab2e9d9bf866fad1b8f91d2b0a0c43692397a9f838e8ad226eb287","markdown":"","html":"\u003cp\u003eThere\u0026#39;s a huge community of polyphasic sleepers, with years worth of surveys and research for anyone who\u0026#39;s interested:\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.polyphasic.net/\" rel=\"nofollow\"\u003ehttps://www.polyphasic.net/\u003c/a\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n","parentHex":"root","score":0,"creationDate":"2022-02-11T05:08:54.007017Z","direction":0,"deleted":false},{"commentHex":"1307b2a7eb337f0d8edebc514efda6d8fb7f90fc5eb1aeb9c36114e587e949f5","commenterHex":"459cb431dba8f714383ac2aef2ff5a1812bb07a4fe8d82a6d97cf1fbd08fa0c0","markdown":"","html":"\u003cp\u003eI don\u0026#39;t know enough about sleep and recovery after physical activities, sorry.\u003c/p\u003e\n","parentHex":"13e78671b381cdb0d3ed2430e5a5cd1d73a52456618a89570b15e1f459400e49","score":0,"creationDate":"2022-02-11T10:57:23.933464Z","direction":0,"deleted":false},{"commentHex":"13e78671b381cdb0d3ed2430e5a5cd1d73a52456618a89570b15e1f459400e49","commenterHex":"e18f30bbc01b92f41c8bd4329b026fe9065bb4542382efb9fbfd4d57ae8e765b","markdown":"","html":"\u003cp\u003eI think your thesis is really compelling, and It\u0026#39;s making me question my current routine of aiming for about 8 hours. One thing not mentioned is the effect of sleep on recovery after physical activities (strength training/aerobic exercise). General consensus seems to be more sleep = better/faster recovery. Any thoughts on this?\u003c/p\u003e\n","parentHex":"root","score":1,"creationDate":"2022-02-11T10:46:59.721861Z","direction":0,"deleted":false},{"commentHex":"593094b50261c695a38333a6ff0c1c7297a251d77386c9cdbb5b57b3b772352d","commenterHex":"459cb431dba8f714383ac2aef2ff5a1812bb07a4fe8d82a6d97cf1fbd08fa0c0","markdown":"","html":"\u003cp\u003eThis is an interesting anecdote, but I believe that your argument is contradicted very strongly by the fact hunter-gatherers from the study I cite in \u003ca href=\"https://guzey.com/theses-on-sleep/#decreasing-sleep-by-1-2-hours-a-night-in-the-long-term-has-no-negative-health-effects\" rel=\"nofollow\"\u003ehttps://guzey.com/theses-on-sleep/#decreasing-sleep-by-1-2-hours-a-night-in-the-long-term-has-no-negative-health-effects\u003c/a\u003e slept just 6.5 hours on average.\u003c/p\u003e\n\n\u003cp\u003eI also suspect you were very depressed when you were homeless, which would confound your sleep time.\u003c/p\u003e\n\n\u003cp\u003eIt\u0026#39;s implausible to me that either 28 hour day or sleeping 2 hours a night could work.\u003c/p\u003e\n","parentHex":"2b636251afd8ceea6429ab7961ab9f21444e86e3ebb082c3c0bf7173459f809d","score":0,"creationDate":"2022-02-11T10:56:39.54564Z","direction":0,"deleted":false},{"commentHex":"c645abb06136dd0b50b8f5bb47f01b1e536c5588db3373ecbcf0d4f896764d64","commenterHex":"anonymous","markdown":"This is an interesting post, but I think you might be overlooking a few things here:\n1) There is an inherent value in alertness. So just being sleepy is a negative even if it does not cause cognitive disruption. Some people have jobs requiring alertness, but many people drive and do not want to do so when drowsy. Also people want to be able to watch a movie without falling asleep in the first twenty minutes.\n2) Long-term effects can be difficult to measure, so doing something for six months and feeling all right doesn't necessarily mean much. Chronic diseases such as high-blood pressure and diabetes build up over many years. There are signs that the dementia process starts decades before symptoms appear. (Note: there seem to be many articles connecting not enough sleep and dementia, but I have not carefully analyzed them.)\n3) A confounding factor in the sleep vs health graphs is that unhealthy individuals tend to sleep a lot. This is the same problem that shows in the moderate drinking vs health analysis ... some people are too sick to drink and elevate mortality amongst non-drinkers. Most people sleeping more than 10 hours a night probably have either depression or health issues.\n4) Sleep is interconnected with alcohol and with caffeine. Both influence sleep negatively. Many people are on a negative spiral of using alcohol to fall asleep, which causes poor sleep. They then drink too much coffee to wake up, keeping them awake at night and leading them to drink more alcohol to fall asleep. I sleep best when I avoid coffee and alcohol ... I naturally fall asleep quickly and sleep about 7 hours before waking up naturally feeling pretty good.","html":"\u003cp\u003eThis is an interesting post, but I think you might be overlooking a few things here:\n1) There is an inherent value in alertness. So just being sleepy is a negative even if it does not cause cognitive disruption. Some people have jobs requiring alertness, but many people drive and do not want to do so when drowsy. Also people want to be able to watch a movie without falling asleep in the first twenty minutes.\n2) Long-term effects can be difficult to measure, so doing something for six months and feeling all right doesn\u0026#39;t necessarily mean much. Chronic diseases such as high-blood pressure and diabetes build up over many years. There are signs that the dementia process starts decades before symptoms appear. (Note: there seem to be many articles connecting not enough sleep and dementia, but I have not carefully analyzed them.)\n3) A confounding factor in the sleep vs health graphs is that unhealthy individuals tend to sleep a lot. This is the same problem that shows in the moderate drinking vs health analysis ... some people are too sick to drink and elevate mortality amongst non-drinkers. Most people sleeping more than 10 hours a night probably have either depression or health issues.\n4) Sleep is interconnected with alcohol and with caffeine. Both influence sleep negatively. Many people are on a negative spiral of using alcohol to fall asleep, which causes poor sleep. They then drink too much coffee to wake up, keeping them awake at night and leading them to drink more alcohol to fall asleep. I sleep best when I avoid coffee and alcohol ... I naturally fall asleep quickly and sleep about 7 hours before waking up naturally feeling pretty good.\u003c/p\u003e\n","parentHex":"root","score":0,"creationDate":"2022-02-11T12:20:41.802642Z","direction":0,"deleted":false}],"configuredOauths":{"commento":true,"github":true,"gitlab":true,"google":true,"sso":false,"twitter":true},"defaultSortPolicy":"score-desc","domain":"guzey.com","isFrozen":false,"isModerator":false,"requireIdentification":false,"requireModeration":false,"success":true}